Contrabass Digest
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2000-02-05

 
From: NINEWINDS@aol.com
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:02:14 EST
Subject: Re: [Contra digest]
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

Is there an address on Top London or email contact person so we can find out
more about the sub contra bass flute?

Vinny Golia
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:25:31 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: CD Reviews (3)
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

Francis - good to hear from you again!

The CDs sound interesting: is the Muramatsu link you found them at
http://www.globe.or.jp/muramatsu/english/e-cd/cdlist-fr.htm ?  I
managed to find the two flute CDs in that list (14 Berliner under the
"AA" page, #2 is under Klambauer - "Halil" is apparently the label),
and noticed that they also appear to carry the long-lost Piacere
Flute Ensemble CD.  There were also two discs by Fabbriciani that
appear to include contrabass flute.  How did you  navigate through
the online order form (in Japanese)?

1. Die 14 berliner Fl=F6tisten: Ein grenzenloses Fl=F6tenvergn=FCgen
>***
>2. Halil 01, 1998.
> This includes: Marais: La Basque; Mozart Quartet in A, K. 298;
>Debussy: La Fille aux Cheveux de Lin; Clair de  Lune; Bozza: Jour =
***
>I ordered both of the above from Muramatsu in Japan via the e-mail link on
>their website. There is an English Cd listing which includes the Berlin
>players but not Halil but the page with the e-mail link is all in Japanese
>so I had to guess to find it.

Thanks,

Grant

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green            gdgreen@contrabass.com
                     http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:32:14 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: Top Wind
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

>Is there an address on Top London or email contact person so we can find out
>more about the sub contra bass flute?

Top Wind (in London) has a website at http://www.topwind.com/ .  The
mention of the Kotato subcontrabass is at the bottom of
http://www.topwind.com/instrume/basses/bass.htm, no price listed.
Contact info is at the bottom of
http://www.topwind.com/aboutus/ab11.htm .

However, you probably don't want to import the instrument *twice*
(Japan -> UK -> US), when there's a US distributor (West Music
Company, 1214 5th Street, Box 5521, Coralville, IA 52241, Telephone:
319-351-2005).

Grant

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green            gdgreen@contrabass.com
                     http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:42:25 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Missing Digests!
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

I am *almost* finished rebuilding the archives of Contrabass list
digests.  The Archive
(http://www.contrabass.com/contra-archive/c-arch.html) now includes
the period from 6/13/96 (the first issue) through 9/16/98, and
10/14/98 to the present.  However, I'm missing about a month's worth
of digests from that gap, and it appears that the Lizst archive is
missing everything after 9/16/98.  Does anyone have copies of the
digest from 9/17/98 to 10/13/98?

Thanks,

Grant

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green            gdgreen@contrabass.com
                     http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 22:36:51 -0800 (PST)
From: JJ McLallen <jam_ump10r@yahoo.com>
Subject: The big "bass ?"
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

I discovered a way to simplify the "what qualifies as a bass instrument" question.

Why not simply say any instrument qualifies that either:

    a) READS IN THE BASS CLEF (or has at some point in
       its history, such as a bass clarinet)

      or

    b)HAS A BORE LENGTH OF 8 FEET OR MORE
 

This should be a very inclusive list. Two simple
requirements that get you exactly what you want.

JJ McLallen
_______________________________________________
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 23:33:46 -0800
From: "Chuck Guzis" <tubastuff@sydex.com>
Subject: Re: The big "bass ?"
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

On 2/4/00,  JJ McLallen  wrote:
>Why not simply say any instrument qualifies that either:
>
>    a) READS IN THE BASS CLEF (or has at some point in
>       its history, such as a bass clarinet)
>
>      or
>
>    b)HAS A BORE LENGTH OF 8 FEET OR MORE
>
>
>This should be a very inclusive list. Two simple
>requirements that get you exactly what you want.

Here goes, my first post to this list...

But then, what about a bass flute (4 feet long, reads treble clef)?

Regards,
Chuck
 

---------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Bb Subcontrabass Recorder
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 08:41:55 CST
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

I just read this message regarding the Subcontrabass Recorder:

>>Bb below 16 foot C.  Without a mouthpiece or a reed, how does a human get
>>that size column of air to vibrate?

 I'm not sure where you get "Bb below 16' C".  From the picture, it looks to
me like the lowest note would be the Bb below 8' C.  Since it takes about 9'
of tubing to produce that note, this would coincide with the description of
this recorder being about 3 meters long.  And remember, the bocal of the
recorder does not act as speaking length.  The speaking length is only the
part below the windway.  In order for a recorder to sound the Bb below 16'
C, the length of tubing below the windway would have to be about 18'.  From
the picture, the lady is over half as tall as the recorder, which would make
her over 9' tall if the recorder were really that tall!!
 Am I in error about any of this?
 -Gregg
 

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

---------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
Subject: contra clarinet playing?!?!?
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 09:14:53 CST
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

List-
 I leave Wednesday to participate in the Texas All-State Band on BBb
contrabass clarinet.  I have a dilemma.  There are 2 contrabass clarinets
that I can choose from to audition on.  One is a "straight" Leblanc, and the
other is an old "paperclip" version that has 2 separate register keys rather
than just one automatic key.  I would be fine with auditioning on the
straight one, but it growls between note changes in the clarion register, as
though it has to settle in to each new note.  The paperclip seems to have a
better tone, but I fumble in fast passages where switching back and forth
quickly between the 2 register keys is so vital.  Also, when I have to end
on high c or b in the clarion of the paperclip, it is extremely sharp.  I
can put down some of the right hand keys and lower my jaw, but this makes
the tone poor and it is still substantially sharp on those notes.
 Last year at State, the judges could not agree on anything in the contra
tryout.  One had me first, one had me last, and the others had me spaced out
in-between.  For 7 spots (4 in the Concert Band, 3 in the Symphonic Band), I
heard that my scores by the judges were 1-3-6-6-7.  This probably isn't
accurate, as I ended up being 6th.
 Anyway, I don't know what to do.  I've always auditioned on the straight
Leblanc, but I was recently told that the tone was too off-the-wall as far
as the growls between clarion notes is concerned, even though the notes by
themselves are very nice-sounding.  The paperclip contra doesn't do that.  I
heard that the judge who put me on last chair last year just couldn't get
past the sound of the straight contra, which was evidently the growls.
 I've also been told that I should just do what will be easiest on me
considering how close the auditions are.  I feel that playing the straight
Leblanc is much easier, but I don't understand why it does what it does to
the clarion notes.
 I would appreciate any suggestions or advice ASAP!!
 Thank you very much in advance,
 Gregg Bailey
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

---------------------------------------------------------

From: ArcLucifer@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 10:30:51 EST
Subject: Re: The big "bass ?"
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

And also the Bass Contra Bass and Contra Contra Bass (if anyone invents it)
Saxophones none of which has ever had anything to do with the bass clef.

Jacob
---------------------------------------------------------

From: Fmmck@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 11:37:12 EST
Subject: Re: The big "bass ?"
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

In a message dated 2/5/00 1:37:35 AM, jam_ump10r@yahoo.com writes:

<< I discovered a way to simplify the "what qualifies as
a bass instrument" question.

Why not simply say any instrument qualifies that
 >>

Is this some kind of contest?  Will someone please explain why we need to
"qualify" anything?

There are varying reasons why we might classify an instrument as Bass.  If we
are refering to their position in a large ensemble, then some of the proposed
definitions make sense.  If we look at the instrument's own family, then a
different set of rules might be appropriate.

So I play Bass Clarinet.  In a woodwind ensemble, it may happen to be the
lowest instrument present, and would be the Bass of the group.  It has "Bass"
in its name, but being rich in overtones, it doesn't sound as low as other
Bass instruments.  It isn't 8 feet long either.  I feel discriminated against!

Let's start at the other end.  For the sake of argument, let's say that the
32 foot organ pipe produces a 16 Hz tone, and that this represents the low
end of most human hearing.  Based on that, a sub-contrabass instrument's
lowest note would fall in the 32 foot, 16 to 32 Hz octave.  Contrabass would
fall in the 16 foot, 32 to 64 Hz octave.  Bass would fall in the 8 foot, 64
to 128 Hz octave.

This means that an instrument whose lowest note falls between 67 and 128 Hz,
could be classified as a "Bass" in the large ensemble.  Now, I understand
that an instrument such as a Clarinet, produces a lowest note that would be
produced by an organ pipe of twice its length, so such an instrument's bore
would need to be between 2 and 4 feet long to fall in this octave.

I'm feeling a little better now.  My Bass Clarinet makes it under the wire!!!

Fred McKenzie
MMB
---------------------------------------------------------

From: ArcLucifer@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 12:21:56 EST
Subject: Re: The big "bass ?" error in my last post
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

Sorry, when my post got sent to me I reliesed a tiny error.

The contra contra bass sax has been made a couple of times but has never
suceeded in being made into a playable state. By invent in my post i meant
"made playable".

Sorry again

Jacob
---------------------------------------------------------

From: CoolStu67@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 12:40:49 EST
Subject: Re: The big "bass ?"
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

A bass flute's lowest note is one half step lower than the alto saxophone.
It's only a bass in comparison to the concert flute.

Stuart

PS- Since everybody else has a submitted a list of basses, here's mine:
(Choosing only instruments that are still being made)
 


<<
 But then, what about a bass flute (4 feet long, reads treble clef)?
>>
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:50:16 +0000
From: Lawrence de Martin <demartin@tesser.com>
Subject: Re: [Contra digest]
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
 

> From: Heliconman@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Air Speed & Timing - Position
>
> what was your reaction to the SVT cabinets that had about 20
> smallish speakers? I know several bassists who swear by them

I had a brief stint as a "roadie" the early '70s and had to move an SVT 8x10" cabinet
nightly.  That sound was the best commercial stage speakers I have heard with respect
to rhythm and pitch.  I attribute the sound quality to the small, quick drivers, the
sealed box and prodigious power.

Faster drivers usually means smaller.  I noticed bass speakers with 8" drivers at
<www.ampeg.com> and <www.euphonicaudio.com>.  I have yet to hear these, nor the
"high-end" equipment of Glockanklang or EBS.  Still a little out of my price range.

I am using 8" drivers for my speaker experiments.  I find that 15" drivers are too
slow, even for bi-amp rigs.  Unfortunately, it takes a large number of smaller
drivers to move the volume of air required for bass.  I am getting a new high speed
design 15" this month, based on the research of Ragnar Lian.  It moves the same air
as the best 4x10" arrays.

 I have preferred sealed speakers over vented all my life, although I only lately
came to the explanation of minimal added resonance.  My theory is that instruments
have a highly evolved set of resonances controlled by skill, and that speakers should
be totally neutral with respect to frequency.  This neutrality should extend beyond
flat frequency response to a flat, uncompensated impedance curve.

Vented boxes have three resonances, represented by two humps and a dip in the
impedance curve.  Throughout this frequency range there are substantial time delays
and pitch modulations of the attack and decay.  This can be readily measured and
simulated, it is inherent in the design.  Bass guitar technique involves compensating
for these speaker flaws, but there is a limit to the ability - plus I would rather
work on the positive attributes of the instrument.

My current thinking is that even the single impedance hump of a sealed box should be
at least an octave below the lowest note (B0 on a 5 string).  There are simply no
commercial drivers which allow a BB tuning in boxes smaller than a refridgerator.

Of course, you could always mount a driver in a wall, ceiling or floor and use the
next room as the enclosure...

Larry de Martin

---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 11:21:48 -0800
From: "Chuck Guzis" <tubastuff@sydex.com>
Subject: Re: The big "bass ?"
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

On 2/5/00,  CoolStu67@aol.com  wrote:

>A bass flute's lowest note is one half step lower than the alto saxophone.=

>It's only a bass in comparison to the concert flute.

Okay, but the contra flute is still only what, about 6 feet long?

>    Trombone w/ trigger
>    Bass trombone
>    Contrabass trombone
>    BBb Tuba

The tuba player in me says Why not CC Eb and F tubas?  And for that matter,=
 a 4-valve euphonium will get down just as low as a tenor trombone with an=
 F trigger...  How about the cimbasso?

Boy, this is getting complicated!

Best regards,
Chuck
 

---------------------------------------------------------

From: CoolStu67@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:31:11 EST
Subject: Re: The big "bass ?"
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
Most students play only the BBb Tubas and 3-valved euphoniums. But now that I
think of it, most students don't play contra flutes or contrabassoons,
either! It is getting complicated, but here's another list that might be
easy to find:
 


Stuart

PS- Not sure how long the contrabass flute is, but I think it's lowest note
is the same as the baritone sax's (with low A).
 

<<
 The tuba player in me says Why not CC Eb and F tubas?  And for that matter,=
  a 4-valve euphonium will get down just as low as a tenor trombone with an=
  F trigger...  How about the cimbasso?
>>
---------------------------------------------------------

From: ArcLucifer@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:12:32 EST
Subject: Re: The big "bass ?"
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

>>>most students don't play contra flutes or contrabassoons,
I know several "young students" who play the contra bassoon.

Also you omitted any recorders. If you include the bassoon surly the bass
recorder which has a low range similar to the bassoon would count. And almost
every school in the country has one.
 

-Jacob
---------------------------------------------------------

From: CoolStu67@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:25:47 EST
Subject: Re: The big "bass ?"
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

Dear God, how has this question of a bass ensemble from high school band
instruments turned into a discussion on every single low instrument on earth?

Stuart

PS- No offense meant, but most bands don't have spots for bass recorders!

<<
 Also you omitted any recorders. If you include the bassoon surly the bass
 recorder which has a low range similar to the bassoon would count. And almost
 every school in the country has one.
>>
---------------------------------------------------------

From: ArcLucifer@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:27:48 EST
Subject: Contra Strings etc.
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

I may have got the purpose of this list wrong but surly non-blowing
instruments should be commented from time to time in the "what is a bass
instrument" , etc. postings.

The website says;
>>Do you like low pitched instruments? Is the upper end of the bass clef just
a bit too high for your taste? Are you fascinated by musical instruments that
register on seismographs?
So surly instruments like the double bass could be included (High half string
harmonic on top string is a G below middle C) and if you get a 5 string bass
than its bottom note is the B just over 3 octaves below middle C, the pen
ultimate note on the piano.

While i'm on the subject, what about pianos? A Bussendawpher (spelt wrong but
phonetically :o) has an extra 3 notes on a concert grand, that's low but
that's nothing compared to an organ.

The organ in St.Pauls Cathedral (London) has a 64 foot woodwind and brass
which sounds (on the bottom note) sounds over 6 octaves below middle C. It
has been scientifically proven that this physically MOVES the cathedral!!

Also don't forget low timpani and the even lower Verdi Drum (used in his
requiem).

Has anyone else got any comments on these instruments.

-Jacob
---------------------------------------------------------

From: ArcLucifer@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:32:04 EST
Subject: Re: The big "bass ?"
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

Sorry but i joined the post in the middle and was following the discussion

-Jacob

Ps. and how many have spots for Bass and Contra Bass Flutes and Contra Bass saxs?

>>A bass flute's lowest note is one half step lower than the alto saxophone.
It's only a bass in comparison to the concert flute.

Stuart

PS- Since everybody else has a submitted a list of basses, here's mine:
(Choosing only instruments that are still being made)
 

---------------------------------------------------------

From: CoolStu67@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:36:23 EST
Subject: Re: Contra Strings etc.
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

What??? C-2???

Stuart

<<
 The organ in St.Pauls Cathedral (London) has a 64 foot woodwind and brass
 which sounds (on the bottom note) sounds over 6 octaves below middle C. It
 has been scientifically proven that this physically MOVES the cathedral!!
>>
---------------------------------------------------------

From: CoolStu67@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:39:50 EST
Subject: Re: The big "bass ?"
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

Flutes and saxes are a major part of ensembles, and their bass and contrabass
brothers could easily play their parts. Recorders don't even have parts in
concert band charts.

Stuart

<<
 Ps. and how many have spots for Bass and Contra Bass Flutes and Contra Bass  saxs?
>>
---------------------------------------------------------

From: ArcLucifer@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:45:42 EST
Subject: Re: The big "bass ?"
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

How many people do you know who can get a contrabass sax for a consort let
allows reeds, mouthpieces and stands and then work out how to play one. As
far as I know there are less than 30 in the world and there is only one large
band (Nuclear Wales) who uses them. Surly a direct blow recorder at a tenth
of the price would be a better alternative?

-Jacob
---------------------------------------------------------

From: ArcLucifer@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:46:36 EST
Subject: Re: Contra Strings etc.
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

Yep, it goes from the crypt to the wispering gallery.

_Jacob
---------------------------------------------------------

From: "Merlin Williams" <merlinw@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: The big "bass ?"
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:50:10 -0500
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

A bass recorder doesn't have the same range as a bassoon.  The sounding
range of the bass recorder is down to F on the fourth line of the bass clef.
(It sounds an octave above the notated pitch.)  A bassoon descends to Bb a
twelfth lower.

Merlin Williams
http://www.netcom.ca/~merlinw
A member of the SaxRing,
the Duke Ellington Ring,
and the Single Reed Ring.
-----Original Message-----

>>>>most students don't play contra flutes or contrabassoons,
>I know several "young students" who play the contra bassoon.
>
>Also you omitted any recorders. If you include the bassoon surly the bass
>recorder which has a low range similar to the bassoon would count. And almost
>every school in the country has one.
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 17:08:15 -0500
From: John Howell <John.Howell@vt.edu>
Subject: Las Vegas Bass Clef Ensembles
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

>From: Lawrence de Martin <demartin@tesser.com> wrote:

>This answer sidesteps an important issue: "Bass Clef" is in the name of the
>Ensemble.  M. Trinko needs a concise defnition so that this worthy project can be
>publicized to prospective players, sponsors and venues.
>
>Is "Basswind" too vague? Or exclusive of brass?  Is "Earthwind" too new-age?  Is
>"Lowball" inappropriate jargon for a gambling city?  I'm sure that other list
>members have a larger musical vocabulary than I, have a go here!

My suggestion would be "Subsonic," which is technically inaccurate but
certainly gets the idea across.

However, it seems this whole discussion is missing the point.  What is the
MUSIC that's going to be played, and how is it going to be arranged and
voiced?  THAT is what determines the instruments that will be acceptable.
Forget about irrelevancies like what clef the player reads from and how low
is low.  If it's going to be tonal music there's going to have to be a
melody, and even if it's played an octave or more below the usual soprano
range, there will have to be instruments to play it!  A tuba ensemble like
the ones Harvey Phillips promoted, after all, does use tenor tubas (aka
euphoniums) in most cases.

As for the instrument lists, there's a huge difference between instrument
that CAN play below the bass clef and instruments that can play COMFORTABLY
in that range.  Any French horn player with a flexible lip has about a 4th
below, and with a Bb side a few lower notes yet, but that isn't the natural
range of the instrument.  And any tenor trombone with an F side can do the
same, but a good bass trombonist can play them under the table in that
range.  My only experience with a contrabass trombone was with a Bach
contrabass VALVE trombone at Indiana, and it was a dreadful instrument!!

Anyhow, the point is:  FIRST the concept (a fun concept!); SECOND the music
(and it'll take someone with a lot of orchestrational skill to bring this
off without sounding like mud wrestling!); THIRD the instrument list and
call for players!

John

John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411   Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:John.Howell@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
 

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