Contrabass Digest
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2000-02-02

 
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 20:22:27 -0500
From: "Samuel O. Andreyev, O.P.S." <anteater@interlog.com>
Subject: Opening formalities!
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

Hello everyone,

I may as well take this opportunity to both introduce myself and answer
my mail...I'm a composer and player of the english horn and virginal
living in Toronto. I have a consuming interest in very low woodwinds --
ever since working with a contrabassoonist on a recent recording I made
I've been hooked! Below is my reply to an email from Grant (whose
website, by the way, has been of invaluable help over the past couple of
years ... I have bought many CDs and books based on
listings/recommendations on his site.)

____

Hi Grant,

The recording I made is of 13 orchestral songs. It's definately unusual.
The instrumentation is actually fairly normal, being your standard
gorvernment-issue orchestral assemblage, except that I had a natural
tendency to assign the solos to bass and contrabass instruments more
often than to higher instruments. While I was making the recording I
became quite enamored of the english horn. I was working with an
excellent player (Cary Ebli, english horn with the Toronto Symphony
Orchestra) and decided it was high time I looked at playing it. I
aldready had 8 years of experience as a cellist, and extensive musical
training, and I wanted to get back to playing in orchestras and having a
stab at making my living as a player ... quite simply, there was no
instrument I more wanted to play than EH.

Due to amazing luck, I found a practically brand-new Selmer Paris EH for
a steal and promtly snapped it up. Of course I've spent quite a bit of
time staring at that bass oboe up for sale on eBay, but simply don't
have the bread! Incidentally, is anyone else surprised at the generally
quite low prices for english horns on eBay?

Sam Andreyev
 
 

> Hi Sam,
>
> Welcome aboard!  I've added your address to the digest list: you'll
> probably receive your first sometime tomorrow afternoon or evening
> (it is generated around 3 PM, California time).
>
> English horn is a *wonderful* instrument.  The main reason I learned
> oboe was to be able to play EH - not that I've been able to for the
> last few decades...  Managed to check one out from UT (University of
> Texas @ Austin) when I was there for grad school, but didn't have it
> long enough to write anything for it.  Every time one pops up on
> eBay, I am sorely tempted.  I'd probably bid on the bass oboe that's
> up for auction right now, but my wife is still recovering from the
> ophicleide I bought in Paris last month.
>
> The recording sounds interesting - is the work orchestral?  Chamber?
> Any interest in posting it?  You could upload it to MP3.com, and not
> have to worry about taking up server space.
 

--
The Expert Press - a Toronto small press publisher
http://www.interlog.com/~anteater
53 Morningside Avenue Toronto M6S 1C6
---------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Easton" <whistler@aznet.net>
Subject: bass sax stand
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:12:55 -0800
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

I'm using a Belmonte baritone saxophone stand (about $40, I think) for my bass saxophone-  Several companies make nearly identical stands to this one- it's black anodized aluminum, with collapsible legs. It works quite well, If you're not trying to play it while it's on the stand.
I had to bend the top arms of the stand out a little to compensate for the larger bell, but the results are sturdy.
-Jay Easton

---------------------------------------------------------

From: "George Wright" <geo@loyola.edu>
Subject: RE: bass sax stand
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:19:46 -0500
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: contrabass-owner@contrabass.com
> [mailto:contrabass-owner@contrabass.com]On Behalf Of Jay Easton
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 9:13 PM
> To: contrabass@contrabass.com
> Subject: bass sax stand
>
>
> I'm using a Belmonte baritone saxophone stand (about $40, I
> think) for my bass saxophone-

Thanks for the tip.  I guess I'll schlep the bass to my friendly local music
store for a fitting.

Geo

---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:05:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: Dafydd y garreg wen <mavnw@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Air Speed & Timing - Position
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Topper wrote:
> Is anyone familiar with theories of experience regarding:
>
> 1: The articulation and air speed to set a given note flowing so as to be
> even with the rest of the ensemble. Is it a factor?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this:- I suppose air speed controls
the pitch of the note, while the volume of air controls the dynamic. Is
this what you wanted?

> 2: Position in the ensemble; e.g. if you are in the far back of the smaller
> insts.  or in line with your relative instruments would the timing of the
> attck differ?

Definitely - sound travels about at 331 m/s (about 1000 ft/s) at normal
room temperature and pressure. In a (reasonably) large ensemble, you could
be as much as 20 metres (c.65 feet) from the conductor, whereas you would
expect at least someone to be right next to him/her/it, giving them almost
instant sound. By contrast, your note would take approximately 20/331
(call it 1/15) seconds to arrive - a difference of about a demisemiquaver
at a speed of crotchet = MM 120 - discernably late. So you must always
anticipate slightly in large ensembles if you are at the back.
If you're sound is shielded entirely by the person in front of you, or
you're pointing backwards (like a French Horn, for example), your sound is
going to reach the audience/conductor via several reflections and
consequent weakenings of sound, and so will need to anticipate even more,
and play louder to counteract this effect.

Dave Taylor
 
 

---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:05:54 +0000 (GMT)
From: Dafydd y garreg wen <mavnw@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
Subject: Euph registers
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Grant Green wrote:
> >We are going to conduct auditions in Las Vegas of any youth on any
> >instrument that uses the bass clef.  From these auditions we will put
>
> The only problems with this, Mark, is that the only woodwinds that
> use the bass clef are the bassoon and contrabassoon.  Bass sax, bass
> clarinet, contrabass clarinet, sarrusophones, etc., are all written
> in treble clef.  Perhaps if you make the requirement the ability to
> descend below the bass clef (although this might rule out
> euphoniums)...

Oy! Don't be cheeky. Without resorting to such false things as double
pedals, I (as can a large number of Euphoniumists) can play notes well
below the bass stave. B (6 leger lines) is the lowest proper note on a standard
 4 valve compensating Euph (although lower can be faked). Even if we're in
Bb Treble clef, that note's still C# below the bass stave.

On a similar note, I'm getting rather fed up of wind band parts written by
composers who clearly have no conception of how to write for the
Euphonium. In our Symphonic Wind Ensemble here at Warwick this year, we've
played four pieces (we meet infrequently, but the playing is supposed to
be of a high amateur standard (for a wind band:) )) - 'Bacchus on Blue
Ridge' by Joseph Horovitz, 'Sennets and Tuckets' by John Woolrich (a
commisioned piece), and, this term, ' 5th Avenue Rhapsody' by Daniel
Eichenbaum and 'A Name Perpetual' by someone with a funny Cornish name
which escapes me. All four of them have serious problems with the Euph
scoring, treating it as an auxiliary Bass Tuba throughout (apart from a
short solo in the last one (the part for which seems to have been
conceived with a Bassoon's low dexterity in mind). The Woolrich is the
worst offender - constant doubling of the (low) tuba part, adding nothing
to the texture.
Have other people noticed this - are wind band composers generally at
a loss as to what to do with the Euphonium, or have I just been unlucky?

Dave Taylor

---------------------------------------------------------

From: "Price, David" <DPrice@uk.abtcorp.com>
Subject: RE: Euph registers
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:24:06 -0000
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

David,

An expression that I have heard used by colleagues here in the North Herts
Music School is that in a Wind Band situation the Euph becomes a 'pudding'
instrument  - i.e. it's just a filler.

So no, your experiences are not unique w.r.t. Euph parts in Wind Band music.

On the other hand, I put the Euph in for the Wind Band when we haven't got
one (we're a bit short on low brass at the moment in North Herts), and have
had some lovely pieces to play that really did make use of the voice of the
instrument, so it shouldn't be a universal damnation of Wind Band arrangers.
I can't remember any specific examples though, sorry.

Dai.

---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:53:02 +0000 (GMT)
From: Dafydd y garreg wen <mavnw@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: Euph registers
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Price, David wrote:
> David,
>
> An expression that I have heard used by colleagues here in the North Herts
> Music School is that in a Wind Band situation the Euph becomes a 'pudding'
> instrument  - i.e. it's just a filler.

Granted, this is often encountered in lower quality arrangements for bands
which can't guarantee a full complement of players (I spent years playing
these with the Oxfordshire Music Service:( ) However, these pieces are
supposedly cutting edge in the Wind Band world, where all parts can be
assumed to be covered. In fact, in 'A Name Perpetual' (which is by Eseld
Pierce, I've just remembered), the bass line is split between Tuba and
Euph in a way that absolutely depends on the Euph being there. It's simply
written so low for so long that it makes your jaw ache. It doesn't suit
the Euph at all, and the scoring is just foolish. Why not split it between
two bass tubas? Because then the Euph is left idle - exactly the problem
above, but not one that should be encountered in a supposedly top-rank
piece.

>
> So no, your experiences are not unique w.r.t. Euph parts in Wind Band music.
>
> On the other hand, I put the Euph in for the Wind Band when we haven't got
> one (we're a bit short on low brass at the moment in North Herts), and have

North Hertfordshire? Do you know Graham Davies, who's currently my
'bumper-up' in the Euph section here at Warwick? And Jeff Hughes too?

> had some lovely pieces to play that really did make use of the voice of the
> instrument, so it shouldn't be a universal damnation of Wind Band arrangers.
> I can't remember any specific examples though, sorry.

That we've done here:-
 

Also, in my experience:-
  I'm sure there's much more, but nothing springs to mind at the moment.
Generally, a brass band piece (where Euph gets much more fun) arranged for
Wind band (usually by the composer) while have some worthwhile stuff in.

Dave

---------------------------------------------------------

From: "Price, David" <DPrice@uk.abtcorp.com>
Subject: RE: Euph registers
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:43:21 -0000
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

Dave,

I haven't been involved with North Herts for too many years but a quick call
to my chief 'partner in crime', Allan Robinson, confirmed that Graham was
one of Allan's pupils when he was here, and Jeff was a Tuba player from the
Stevenage Music School (the North Herts Music School is in Hitchin).

Allan reckons that I did sit in once when I first started there with Jeff -
but I'm afraid I don't remember him (I might if we met again).

Anyway, say hello to Graham from Allan and tell him that Allan is glad he's
kept it up.

Dave.
---------------------------------------------------------

From: "J. Daniel Ashton" <jdashton@bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed,  2 Feb 2000 12:32:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Euph registers
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

>>>>>> "Dygw" == Dafydd y garreg wen wrote:
Dygw> On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Grant Green wrote:
Dygw>
Dygw> > >We are going to conduct auditions in Las Vegas of any youth on
Dygw> > >any instrument that uses the bass clef. From these auditions
Dygw> > >we will put
Dygw> >
Dygw> >Perhaps if you make the
Dygw> >requirement the ability to descend below the bass clef (although
Dygw> >this might rule out euphoniums)...
Dygw>
Dygw> Oy! Don't be cheeky. Without resorting to such false things as
Dygw> double pedals, I (as can a large number of Euphoniumists) can
Dygw> play notes well below the bass stave. B (6 leger lines) is the
Dygw> lowest proper note on a standard 4 valve compensating Euph
Dygw> (although lower can be faked). Even if we're in Bb Treble clef,
Dygw> that note's still C# below the bass stave.

But that's just the problem!  You've got a four-valve, but too many of
us don't, especially students (the subject of the original post). I
recently arranged a number for my brass ensemble, and really wanted to
write the euphonium parts below the bass clef staff at times. However,
both of my euphonium players' instruments have only three valves, to my
disappointment and consternation. I wrote in the lower notes as
options, hoping to get a four-valve player sometime in the future.

So, given that Grant way replying to Mark, and that Mark was
definitely discussing students (ages 12 - 21, I think he said) Grant's
probably right more often than wrong, i.e. more of the student
euphonium players in Las Vegas will have three valve instruments, and
won't be able to play much below F at the bottom of the staff.

Bummer, ain't it?

--
mailto:jdashton@southern.edu J. Daniel Ashton       ICQ# 9445142
mailto:jdashton@us.ibm.com  http://www.southern.edu/~jdashton
mailto:jdashton@bellsouth.net <-- NeXTMail PGP key available
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:57:10 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: Writing for Euph
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

>On a similar note, I'm getting rather fed up of wind band parts written by
>composers who clearly have no conception of how to write for the
>Euphonium.

As a sometime composer, who's had a wind band work on the back burner
for a while, what do *you* like to see in a euph part?  What do you
really dislike?

For that matter, I'm open to pointers on tuba, trombone, bass bone,
contrabass bone, and others...

Thanks,

Grant

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green            gdgreen@contrabass.com
                     http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------

From: CoolStu67@aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:21:51 EST
Subject: Re: Euph registers
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

As a highly amateur composer, that wants to learn in college, I know the
problem I encounter with the euphonium are the players. Most can't play high
or low, so it's like writing for an instrument of one and a half octaves!

Stuart

<<
 Have other people noticed this - are wind band composers generally at
 a loss as to what to do with the Euphonium, or have I just been unlucky?
>>
---------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Euph registers
From: "Corwin D. Moore" <corwinmoore@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 16:30:38 EST
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

>On a similar note, I'm getting rather fed up of wind band parts written by
>composers who clearly have no conception of how to write for the
>Euphonium.

The euph is the "cello of the wind band" - a "sort of" bass instrument,
but so much, MUCH more. I agree with your assessment though, especially
since the rich sonority of the euph is woefully underappreciated by many
composers/arrangers.

The low-voiced countermelodies are all-too-often reserved for the
trombones, whose more piercing sound lends more "punch" to counter lines
in full ensemble.

- Corwin Moore

---------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Air Speed & Timing - Position
From: "Corwin D. Moore" <corwinmoore@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 16:30:38 EST
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

> Is anyone familiar with theories of experience regarding:
>>
>> 1: The articulation and air speed to set a given note flowing so as
>>to be  even with the rest of the ensemble. Is it a factor?
>
>I'm not quite sure what you mean by this:- I suppose air speed controls
>the pitch of the note, while the volume of air controls the dynamic. Is
>this what you wanted?

Air speed and volume are not so clearly separated as to effect. Pitch
"shading" is much more affected by embouchure (especially in the brass).
Air temperature, however, DOES have impact. The warmer the air (from
breathing more deeply in the diaphragm), the higher the pitch.
 
>> 2: Position in the ensemble; e.g. if you are in the far back of the smaller
>> insts.  or in line with your relative instruments would the timing of the
>> attack differ?

The lower instrument voices can be more percussive than the upper ones,
and other instrumentalists can actually adjust to YOUR playing.  Playing
"in the groove" (i.e., based on where your attack comes relative to those
of the others in the ensemble) is also important. "Back seat players"
(those of us playing "the big uglies") need to stay as "forward in the
groove" as we can.  Good "ensemble" can really depend on it.

Another factor (from painful personal experience): Large-belled
instruments should not sit close to the tympani or bass drums. The
percussive shock wave collected and funneled backward into your
instrument can thoroughly mess up your attack!

- Corwin Moore (Been there, Done that, Got the T-shirt)

 
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