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From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
Subject: Low organ notes and brass pedals
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 12:06:06 CDT
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com>the lowest note reachable on an Organ in existence is about 8
>Hz or so,Actually, the lowest *true* note is 8 Hz (64' C). However, the Atlantic
City Convention Hall organ has a 128' resultant by way of combining the 64'
with a 42 2/3' (lowest note = 4 Hz). This certainly is not as effective as
a true 128'; I plan on having a large music hall built with possibly the
world's largest organ, which will contain some true 128' stops. I will have
to invite all of y'all to hear it!!!!! There's no telling how many
contrabass maniacs will be subscribed by then!
The bad thing, though, is that the 42 2/3' is not an actual stop of its
own; rather, it is the 64' stop transposed up a fifth. In other words, by
combining the 64' with the 42 2/3', you are playing equal-tempered fifths,
rather than perfect fifths.
Also, the Cadet Chapel organ has a 128' resultant by way of combining the
32' with the 42 2/3'. However, this works only down to F because this 42
2/3', too, is from the same rank of pipes as the 32'. In other words, this
resultant sounds the 32' notes with the notes a fourth below, and since the
lowest pedal on the organ is a C, this resultant only works down to F.
Does anyone know more about this--if there are other organs that can
produce a 128' by way of the drawknobs? Yes, you can play fifths on the
pedalboard, but that doesn't count!!
I think that a 64' can definitely add alot to organ music. I would like to
think the same of the 128', but until I can hear a real one, I guess I'll
have to speculate.>I can
>almost reach down there on my Bass Trombone, and there are plenty of
>Tubists who can go further than me (not to mention Trombonists!).I want to understand this. The lowest open note on a standard tenor
trombone is a Bb in the 16' octave; when you descend from this note using
the slide, you get the lowest possible real note--the fundamental pitch of
the tube--which is an E in the 16' octave, provided you don't have triggers.
The lowest open note on a standard concert tuba is a Bb in the 32' octave;
when you descend from this note using the valves, you get the C in the 32'
octave (using all 4 valves), which is 16 Hz. Anything you could produce
below that would be a false tone and couldn't possibly have fundamental
resonance, as the tube wouldn't support the fundamental of anything lower.
I've never heard a tuba player that was able to play anything below 32' E.
I'm just not understanding how all of y'all are saying that you can play
these massive notes that are lower than the lowest fundamental your
instruments will allow!?!?!?
I have heard a 32' bombarde on an organ such that the pipes are conical as
they should be, but they're half-length, so those notes are actually false
tones, and they sound very bad. Those pipes aren't supporting any
fundamental; they're simply acting as amplifiers for the higher harmonics of
the vibrating reeds, and the sound is ugly.
Like I say, if you want to hear what the lowest real note on any brass
instrument is, take something with a reed that will fit onto the instrument,
whether it be a bari sax mouthpiece or simply a straw with a double reed cut
in the end, depress all valves (or extend the slide all the way out) and
blow! The sound is so much louder, too, than the lips can produce, though I
don't know why.
-Gregg__________________________________________________
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---------------------------------------------------------From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
Subject: 64' organ stops????
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 12:14:32 CDT
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comColin,
>I have heard that the 64 foot organ stops at Lincoln Cathedral (I think) had
>to be turned off, as there were worries about the integrity of the building
>when in use!What all do you know about this? Is that 64' a true stop? Is it reed or
flue? If it is in fact a true 64', then I'm wondering what other unknown
real 64's there are in the world. The only ones I have learned of are the
64' Diaphone at Atlantic City Convention Hall and the 64' Contra Trombone in
the Sydney Town Hall in Australia.
Where is Lincoln Cathedral?
-Gregg______________________________________________________
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---------------------------------------------------------From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
Subject: 7-foot tuba????
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 12:27:45 CDT
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comGrant,
>a monster tuba seven foot high,
What's the story on this tuba?? I mean, is it a BBBb a full octave below
the standard tuba? Is it a new one, or is it Sousa's or Harvards??? What
are the lowest notes that the music has it play? Does it frequently play
32' notes? Is it easy to pick out in the recording?
How can a person's lips effectively play an instrument that large with a
mouthpiece that large??
Highly interested,
-Gregg______________________________________________________
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---------------------------------------------------------From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
Subject: Subcontrabassoon, Octocontrabass clari
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 12:40:00 CDT
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comRegarding the octocontra clarinets,
>Both instruments descended to their written low C sounding EEb and BBBb
>respectively.Then why does the Guinness Book of World Records say this: "...the
subcontrabass clarinet, which can reach C (subscript 11) or 16.4 cycles/sec."
I took that to mean only a low D extension.Also, I thought that we had agreed that a true Sub-Contrabassoon had in
fact been constructed, or at least that it MIGHT'VE been. After all, the
Guinness states: "In 1873 a sub-double bassoon able to reach B (subscript
111) (plus or minus) or 14.6 cycles/sec was constructed..."There is one person on this list who had reasonable arguments to support
the possibility of the subcontrabassoon. I can't remember who it is, but he
likes to say "Contrafag" alot! So, who is it?!?!? Crawl back out and
convince us that there WAS a subcontrabassoon!
-Gregg______________________________________________________
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---------------------------------------------------------From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
Subject: Hey!
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 13:38:52 CDT
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comHey, Michael! I am emailing you privately about this.
>the human ear
>can apparently recognize pitches with important harmonics missing, i.e.
>the fundamental.This is because of difference tones. If you have the 2nd and 3rd harmonics
of a tone, there will be a difference tone which is the 1st harmonic (3 - 2
= 1). This is why so many organs have a 32' "resultant" by way of having a
16' and a 10 2/3' stop sound simultaneously if there is insufficient space
for a true 32'. However, the resulting fundamental doesn't have power like
it would if it were a true tone.
A telephone works largely on this principal. When you hear someone's voice
on the telephone, only the higher harmonics of their voice are being
transmitted. Your brain hears the tone of their voice through difference
tones. However, if you notice, the voice you hear does sound like them in a
way, yet it doesn't. That's because the lower harmonics are truly missing.
From what I understand, the average human can hear up to about 16,000 Hz.
But when people get old, they can only hear up to about 8,000 Hz. This is
in fact half of the frequencies, but it is only 1 octave because 16,000 is
twice 8,000. So it may seem like they have lost much hearing capacity, yet
they have only lost one octave out of about nine that they can really hear!
I believe that this is why my grandmother can understand me just fine in
person, but on the phone, she has a terrible time understanding someone.
Since the telephone transmits only the higher harmonics, that is probably
why.
-Gregg
______________________________________________________
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---------------------------------------------------------From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
Subject: Oops!
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 13:41:50 CDT
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comSorry, list! I hit "Send" on Michael's message before changing the
destination address!
-Gregg______________________________________________________
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---------------------------------------------------------From: "Tom Izzo" <jeanvaljean@ntsource.com>
Subject: Re: Low organ notes and brass pedals
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:13:50 -0500
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comGregg,
For those of us, who are not Organists, lets refer to actual pitches. I want
to be sure we're on the same "page".Subject: Low organ notes and brass pedals
Earlier you saw someone tad typed:
> >I can
> >almost reach down there on my Bass Trombone, and there are plenty of
> >Tubists who can go further than me (not to mention Trombonists!).
>
> I want to understand this. The lowest open note on a standard tenor
> trombone is a Bb in the 16' octave;When you refer to Bb in the "16' octave, what note are you referring to?
The "fundamental" in 1st position on a Bb Tenor Trombone is the Bb-3 spaces
below Bass Clef. Is that what you are referring to?when you descend from this note using
> the slide, you get the lowest possible real note--the fundamental pitch of
> the tube--which is an E in the 16' octave, provided you don't have triggers.Yes, the sounding E is 5 spaces below Bass clef.
> The lowest open note on a standard concert tuba is a Bb in the 32' octave;
> when you descend from this note using the valves, you get the C in the 32'
> octave (using all 4 valves), which is 16 Hz. Anything you could produce
> below that would be a false tone and couldn't possibly have fundamental
> resonance, as the tube wouldn't support the fundamental of anything lower.
> I've never heard a tuba player that was able to play anything below 32' E.
Only a 3valve BBb "band" tuba then.You have a lot to learn about Brass instruments. Most Tubas can be had with
3, 4, 5, 6 or even 7 valves. The most common Tubas are not in Bb either,
most Tubas are in C (CC), there are many in Bb, F, Eb, CC, BBb, FF etc, not
couting the valves.And of course even the Tenor Trombone comes in more versions than just Bb.
There are Tenors in C, C w/G valves, Bb, Bb w/F valves, A, A w/E valves,
some customized Bb Tenors w/Eb valves. Bass Trombones come in an almost
infinite configuration. Straight Bassi in Bb, G, F, Eb, or even formerly in
D, Valves in G, Gb, F, E, Eb. D, Db, C & even B.
Contrabass Trombones (generally an octave blow Tenors) are available in CC,
BBb, AA, BBb/FF, etc.Because of the way a Trombone is wrapped (bent), we can use the metal of the
instrument to vibrate against itself & produce a series of "double pedal"
tones at 1 position lower than the true fundamental. So on a Tenor in Bb, I
can play a BBBb in 2nd position. That's 6 lines below Bass clef. (1/2 step
above the lowest note on a piano), by extension then, we can carry it out to
F in 7th (8 lines below Bass clef). Add the triggers and.....................Tom
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