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Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 19:22:58 -0500
From: M Rubin <mdrubin@bga.com>
Subject: Re: [Contra digest]
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comUm, "pocket Tuba?"
Maybe they were "mass produced?"___________________________________________________________
Mark RubinPOB 49227, Austin TX 78765
http://markrubin.com
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 19:53:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adam Kent-Isaac <lokibassoon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Why did the sarrusophone become unpopular?
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comWhy did the sarrusophone become unpopular? At the
time, it was much cheaper to buy than a saxophone, a
lot lighter, and probably slightly easier to play. I
can see no reason for it to become obsolete. You could
say it was wiped out by its competitor (the saxophone)
but the sarrusophone has a tone all its own, and not
at all like the saxophone's. It would also go better
in orchestras with the bassoon, trombone and low
strings section, blending smoothly and evenly. The
saxophone was rarely used in orchestral works because
it had a hybrid tone, and sounded too loud and harsh
for it to be played with an orchestra. (One tenor
saxophone alone in terms of volume equals one cello
section)The contrabass saxophone is also MUCH too cumbersome
and expensive compared to the Contrabass Sarrusophone
($40,000 for a contrabass sax vs. $2000 for a
contrabass sarrusophone) and the idea of marching with the contra sax is
absolutely absurd.For all intents and purposes the sarrusophone is
simply more practical than the sax. Why then did it
fade from existence?-Adam KI
Bassoon, low saxes, low clarinets and bass.
=====
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
---------------------------------------------------------From: CoolStu67@aol.com
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:23:58 EDT
Subject: Re: Why did the sarrusophone become unpopular?
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
<<
The saxophone was rarely used in orchestral works because
it had a hybrid tone, and sounded too loud and harsh
for it to be played with an orchestra. (One tenor
saxophone alone in terms of volume equals one cello
section)
>>Loud? Harsh? Bullcrap. Go out and by a professional saxophonist's CD, and
tell me that they are loud and harsh. Don't compare Charlie Parker or John
Coltrane to classical saxophonists, either. And any good saxophonist can
bring their volume to a musical level with the greatest of ease.The saxophone was not commonly (wouldn't say rarely) used in orchestras
because of the historical factor. Strings, brasses, and primitive winds have
been part of the orchestra for centuries; when the saxophone just pops out of
nowhere, you can't expect composers to accept it like they have accepted
violins and basses.Adam, how old are you and how long have you played each of your instruments?
Stuart
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:02:03 -0500
From: bonnie&Oscar <bgyoaw@swbell.net>
Subject: Square Wave
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comThe shape of the pressure pulse.
Not a nice smooth sine wave
that all good tubers know and
love, at least in the high register.
The nasty Blatt sound
beloved by Bass t-bones in
their low register.Called square because of the trace on
the Oscilloscope.Oscar
---------------------------------------------------------
From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
Subject: Help with physics!?!?!
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 00:10:04 CDT
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comRegarding the Earth's resonance at .002 Hz, I calculate that to be roughly
17 octaves below middle c; I also calculated that it would take 262,144 feet
of tubing to produce such a note. Of course, you could cut that in half by
making the tube cylindrical assuming the mouthpiece is of the reed type!
This would then be 131,072 feet of tubing. Still quite a bunch!
So, what can 262,144 feet be compared to???
Also, it is said that the wavelength of an open pipe is twice the length of
the pipe itself. This doesn't make sense to me, because I do not see how
wavelength can factor into sound. After all, the air particles are moving
back and forth; the amount of displacement by which the particles do this is
the AMPLITUDE, not wavelength. Many people confuse that. The rate at which
the particles do this is the frequency. The amount of time that it takes
the particles do complete this cycle once is the period. So where does
wavelength come in??? The particles are not moving like a sine wave.
Rather, if you were to graph the displacement in relation to time, this
would be a sine wave. But since the particles simply move back and forth, I
don't see how there can even BE such a thing as wavelength for something
moving back and forth. What's the deal??
Anyway, assuming that the wavelength thing holds true, the wavelength of
this *Earth* note would be 524,288 feet!!!
-Gregg______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
Subject: Huge tubas
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 00:29:26 CDT
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com> The largest tuba in the world is in BBBBb. It is
>about nine feet tall, and was built specially by Sousa
>for the Sousa band. It now languishes in the
>collection of a circus promoter in South Africa; God
>knows how he managed to get hold of it.
>
> It is, FYI, NOT this tuba you're talking about at
>Harvard.I believe that the one at Harvard is the same pitch as Sousa's. My 1986
edition of the Guinness Book of World Records states that the Sousa tuba has
39 feet of tubing. Considering that a standard BBb tuba has roughly 18
feet, and that 39 is basically twice 18 (all are approximations), it would
stand to reason that the Sousa tuba is also a BBBb.
One of my music books, however, states that the largest tuba in the world
contains 45 feet of tubing, being 8 feet tall. Are we to assume that all of
these measurements exclude the valve tubing???
In The Encyclopedia of Musical Instruments by Robert Dearling, there is a
picture of a huge, impressive looking tuba. The caption reads:
"A sub-contra bass tuba with 34 feet which came to light in 1957 in the
basement shop of Soho (London) instrument makers, Paxman Brothers."
What it must be like to take a contrabass sax mouthpiece, put it on one of
these monsters, and belt out a 64' 8 Hz tone with ease!!!!______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
Subject: Bari mpc on tuba!
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 00:18:05 CDT
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comTom,
When I said that the lowest *true* note for a tuba is 16 Hz, I was
referring to a 4-valved BBb tuba.Adam,
> Just a few days ago at a concert, during an
>intermission I borrowed Steven's tuba and put my bari
>sax mouthpiece on it. My God, it was low. I couldn't
>produce notes on it, really, just a few sounded okay
>and the rest were shaky or inaudible.If you make sure to hold the mpc tight against the tuba receiver (if that's
what it's called), you can get some impressive sounds! However, if you can
get access to a sousaphone, that would be better. The reason I say this is
because my bari mouthpiece actually FIT the sousaphone receiver! The
resonance, oomph, power, volume, etc., were astounding all the way down to
20 Hz! Darn, if only the sousaphone had 4 valves!It was immediately after that experiment that I tried it with a 4-valved
concert tuba. It was astounding and I played down to 16 Hz CCCC, but the
mouthpiece didn't fit over that tuba's receiver, so it was much harder to do.Hmm, I wonder what it'd be like to take Dr. Young's tuba and put a bari or
bass sax mouthpiece on it!! Didn't Dr. Young say that his tuba can go all
the way down to 64' EEEEE?
-Gregg______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------From: "Tom Izzo" <jeanvaljean@ntsource.com>
Subject: Re: Huge tubas
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 01:50:29 -0500
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
Interesting.----- Original Message -----
From: Gregg Bailey <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
>
> What it must be like to take a contrabass sax mouthpiece, put it on one of
> these monsters, and belt out a 64' 8 Hz tone with ease!!!!Funny you should mention that! I've had several occassions to play an Orsi
Contrabass Sax. What do I use for a mouthpiece? Why, a Tuba mp, of course.Tom
---------------------------------------------------------
From: Heliconman@aol.com
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 02:36:45 EDT
Subject: Re: The world's largest tuba is NOT the one you guys are talking
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comLokibassoon wrote....
> Hey guys
>
> The largest tuba in the world is in BBBBb. It is
> about nine feet tall, and was built specially by Sousa
> for the Sousa band. It now languishes in the
> collection of a circus promoter in South Africa; God
> knows how he managed to get hold of it.
> It is, FYI, NOT this tuba you're talking about at Harvard.Okay! So now I want details and pictures and perhaps a recording! I have
chatted on the internet on tuba lists and contrabass lists and this is the
first I've heard of this BBBBb tuba!! Who is the circus promoter? What
specific location in South Africa? Who was the manufacturer? It wasn't Sousa.
He was a composer, band leader and musician. I would bet that he contracted
either J. W. Pepper or C. G. Conn to build it for him to his description of
it, as in the case of the sousaphone. J. W. Pepper of Philadelphia built the
first one but C. G. Conn built the best one for him. If anyone could have
built a PLAYABLE BBBBb Tuba it would be Colonel Conn's crew! I LOVE the sound
of my 1890 Conn helicon! What kind of giant person would it take to actually
be able to PLAY a mud dweller that size?!!! You'd need chops the size of
Carol Channing's and the lung power of an elephant!
We need more details here! where did you read or hear about this megatuba?> By the way, is that a stand up of Bill
> Clinton next to him with the saxophone? I saw one just
> like it at a store somewhere and it looked like it was
> Bill. If it is, there's an error: BILL CLINTON PLAYS
> TENOR NOT ALTO.Yes, I guess that's supposed to be the Head Honker. Could be a double. Are
you sure he doesn't double on alto, too? It's not much of a stretch. I once
saw a Maynard Ferguson concert where he introduced "Prof. Willie Maiden" in
the audience and asked him to sit in with the big band. Willie said he would
if Maynard played the soprano sax. The audience laughed. Who knew Ferguson
would absolutely SMOKE on it?!! Perhaps Clinton HAS an alto but >>AHEM<<
never BLEW through it.
Ya sure, Bill!! Riiiiiight!! ;/LET'S FIND OUT ABOUT THIS ALLEGED KING TUBA!
Thanks!
Heliconman@aol.com
---------------------------------------------------------From: Heliconman@aol.com
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 03:19:06 EDT
Subject: Re: Huge tubas
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comIn a message dated 10/01/1999 1:30:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
greggbailey@hotmail.com writes:> > The largest tuba in the world is in BBBBb. It is
> >about nine feet tall, and was built specially by Sousa
> >for the Sousa band. It now languishes in the
> >collection of a circus promoter in South Africa; God
> >knows how he managed to get hold of it.
> >
> > It is, FYI, NOT this tuba you're talking about at
> >Harvard.
>
> I believe that the one at Harvard is the same pitch as Sousa's. My 1986
> edition of the Guinness Book of World Records states that the Sousa tuba
has
> 39 feet of tubing. Considering that a standard BBb tuba has roughly 18
> feet, and that 39 is basically twice 18 (all are approximations), it would
> stand to reason that the Sousa tuba is also a BBBb.Baines' book "Brass Instruments" mentions a BBBb tuba that was PLAYED by
Gilmore's Band. Sousa's Band hired several of Gilmore's musicians after
Gilmore's passing in 1892 and Gilmore's band carried on under several band
leaders for a while. It could be the same BBBb tuba used in both bands. I
tend to suspect that the BBBb Besson owned by Carl Fischer's on Bleecker
Street in New York City could very likely be this horn, as Gilmore was based
in New York in his final years, playing frequently at Coney Island and
Central Park.> One of my music books, however, states that the largest tuba in the world
> contains 45 feet of tubing, being 8 feet tall. Are we to assume that all of
> these measurements exclude the valve tubing???Which book is this?
> In _The Encyclopedia of Musical Instruments_ by Robert Dearling, there is
a
> picture of a huge, impressive looking tuba. The caption reads:
> "A sub-contra bass tuba with 34 feet which came to light in 1957 in the
> basement shop of Soho (London) instrument makers, Paxman Brothers."
> What it must be like to take a contrabass sax mouthpiece, put it on one of
> these monsters, and belt out a 64' 8 Hz tone witPaxman sounds familiar from a previous email. I think this could be the EEb
of the Hoffnung Festival fame. Anyone own any LPs of these festivals??
Cheers!
Heliconman@aol.com
---------------------------------------------------------From: Heliconman@aol.com
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 03:56:58 EDT
Subject: Re: Huge tubas
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comIn a message dated 10/01/1999 1:30:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
greggbailey@hotmail.com writes:> "A sub-contra bass tuba with 34 feet which came to light in 1957 in the
> basement shop of Soho (London) instrument makers, Paxman Brothers."Found an old entry on our own Contrabass list written by Francis Firth......
I think that there is a surviving EEEb at Paxman in London, where one was
certainly found in the 60s or 70s (illustrated in, I think, The Ultimate
Encyclopedia of Musical Instruments although I'd have to check the details of
this title). It is, I think, this size of instrument that is used in
Hoffman's Musical Festival performance of Annie Laurie Variations by Gordon
Jacob for 2 piccolos, harmonium, hurdy-gurdy, heckelphone (has quite a good
solo), 2 contrabassoons, contra-alto and contrabass clarinets, subcontrabass
tuba, contrabass serpent (anaconda).Francis
Francis.Firth@uce.ac.uk
The only correction here is that it's the "Hoffnung Festivals". I've borrowed
the albums from the Boston Public Library. Sadly, all the LPs there have been
sold off for pennies! Their music collection includes less than 100 CDs now.
Arrrrrgh!Heliconman@aol.com
---------------------------------------------------------From: Heliconman@aol.com
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 04:45:52 EDT
Subject: Gerard Hoffnung's tuba
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comHey! I found the Official Gerard Hoffnung Web Site here!
Gerard was the tubist in question in this linked picture. I think this is the Paxman tuba. Mrs Hoffnung doesn't mention anything specific about the horn at all and Gerard is now playing the big tuba in the sky. ; (Check this guy out! He was a really funny guy, and a great cartoonist. I remember listening to the EMI recordings and the hose pipe solo by Dennis Brain was surprisingly hauntingly beautiful, if I remember. I used to listen to it with my old roommate Michael Alpert who now plays french horn with the National Orchestra of Brazil, based in Sao Paulo. He was amazed by Dennis' awesome control on the hose! I'm going to order all the CDs on this site before I can't find them any more!
Enjoy this guy!
Heliconman@aol.com
---------------------------------------------------------From: Francis Firth <Francis.Firth@uce.ac.uk>
Subject: Woodwind with Valves
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 09:59:24 +0100
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comA couple of days ago someone wondered why valves had never been tried with woodwind.
In fact, in Gunter Dullat's Fast vergessene Blasinstrumente aus Zwei Jahrhunderten there was such an instrument patented even if it never wentinto production.
'Invented' by Cassi Luigi Guiseppe Melonie and called the Melonie it was a
twin-bore clarinet with a double mouthpiece sporting a single reed cut in
half for about half of its length to make it function as two reeds.
It was a double instrument with two bores like the double flageolet but MOST
OF THE NOTES WERE CHANGED BY THE USE OF TWO SETS OF 3 PISTON AND 1 ROTARY
VALVE - 1 set for each bore.
There were also a couple of vent keys, presumably for overblowing and a
couple of standard closed keys for the bottom but one semitone (I assume).
Clearly for a cylindrical tube instrument of the clarinet type one would
need valves able to lower (or raise although this seems less practical) the
pitch by up to a twelfth but otherwise I can see no particular reason why an
instrument of this type should not work (as long as the valves were
compensating). Clearly overblowing on a reed instrument needs octave or vent
keys, however, as it would be significantly more difficult to use the lips
alone as on the trumpet, etc.
I suppose that such an instrument never found favour because, unlike on
brass instruments where the tone is badly affected (not to mention
intonation), normal tone holes have proved satisfactory and efficient on
woodwind instruments and there has been no reason to change this system.
On a conical-bore woodwind the use of valves might cause a loss of tone
quality in the same way that, some argue, it does on the horn.
Also, of course, it is likely that such instruments would need to be made of
metal not wood (although this has not been a problem for the saxophone) and
it is unlikely that they would be able to replace the tone colour of the
standard woodwind and would have to act as a new type of sound colour.
As far as putting mouthpieces goes this seems commonplace.
On one of his albums the tuba player Pinguin Moschner has put a reed on his
Tuba while on Philip Neumann of Pioneer Brass has done the same for a
trombone on one of their CDs.
Francis Firth
Francis.Firth@uce.ac.uk
---------------------------------------------------------From: "Tom Izzo" <jeanvaljean@ntsource.com>
Subject: Sub Contrabass Tuba
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 12:41:31 -0500
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comHi all,
You wanted pictures?
Go here to see a young Sam Pilifian playing a sub-Contrabass.
(courtesy of Bob Coulter)http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/3990/sousa.jpg
Tom
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 13:27:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adam Kent-Isaac <lokibassoon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Why did the sarrusophone become unpopular?
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comToday, or since the twenties, there has been an
outstanding amout of virtuosity on the saxophone, what
with circular breathing, dynamic ranges of huge
proportions, and other techniques used in the playing
of this instrument.
However, we can't forget that the saxophone was
invented to boost the stregnth of clarinets and
trumpets in the military bands of Belgium.
When the saxophone was invented, there was no such
thing as a true virtuoso on the saxophone. There was
one way of playing it: loud. It was invented to be
loud and harsh, and to give a strong bass to the
woodwind and brass sections in the band. Back then,
players were not about to adopt new styles of playing.
It was only until the saxophone managed to insinuate
itself into jazz that new styles of playing were
developed.
I'm not comparing a a saxophonist such as Rousseau to
one such as Parker. These are two distinctive styles
of playing. Rousseau has made his contributions to
classical music largely by solo playing. As such, it
would be a given that he was not often featured with
orchestras.
Another point which supports my argument is that when
you hear the classical saxophone, it is in a concerto,
or an occasion where its distinctive sound is intended
to be heard. You would never hear a bass saxophone for
instance, playing with a large orchestra and never
soloing.
It is difficult to dispel decades of generalization
about the saxophone being a "jazzy" instrument, and to
instruct people in the orchestral uses of the
saxophone.-Adam
--- CoolStu67@aol.com wrote:
> The saxophone was rarely used in orchestral works
> because
> it had a hybrid tone, and sounded too loud and harsh
> for it to be played with an orchestra. (One tenor
> saxophone alone in terms of volume equals one cello
> section)
> >>
>
> Loud? Harsh? Bullcrap. Go out and by a professional
> saxophonist's CD, and
> tell me that they are loud and harsh. Don't compare
> Charlie Parker or John
> Coltrane to classical saxophonists, either. And any
> good saxophonist can
> bring their volume to a musical level with the
> greatest of ease.
>
> The saxophone was not commonly (wouldn't say rarely)
> used in orchestras
> because of the historical factor. Strings, brasses,
> and primitive winds have
> been part of the orchestra for centuries; when the
> saxophone just pops out of
> nowhere, you can't expect composers to accept it
> like they have accepted
> violins and basses.
>
> Adam, how old are you and how long have you played
> each of your instruments?
>
> Stuart
---------------------------------------------------------From: "Tom Izzo" <jeanvaljean@ntsource.com>
Subject: Orchestral Sax
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:52:32 -0500
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comAdam,
> Another point which supports my argument is that when
> you hear the classical saxophone, it is in a concerto,
> or an occasion where its distinctive sound is intended
> to be heard. You would never hear a bass saxophone for
> instance, playing with a large orchestra and never
> soloing.>
There are other uses for the Saxophone besides soloing.
Attend or listen to ANY French Opera. The French composers love the Sax.
They don't always have to be soloing.
CARMEN has a Tenor Sax part in the Orchestra (part of the Texture)
Darius Milhaud often had Alto or Tenor parts in his works.
Most of Bizet's compositions have at least one Sax part.
Debussy used the Sax in his orchestrations
Claude Michel Schoenberg used the sax (albeit sometimes as a soloist), in
his Operas: "Les Misérables", "Miss Saigon", "La Révolution Francaise".To name put a few...
Tom
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 13:55:54 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: Why did the sarrusophone become unpopular?
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com> When the saxophone was invented, there was no such
>thing as a true virtuoso on the saxophone. There was
>one way of playing it: loud. It was invented to be
>loud and harsh, and to give a strong bass to the
>woodwind and brass sections in the band. Back then,
>players were not about to adopt new styles of playing.Actually, if I recall correctly, the original saxophone was a
mellower instrument than today's version.
>
> Another point which supports my argument is that when
>you hear the classical saxophone, it is in a concerto,
>or an occasion where its distinctive sound is intended
>to be heard. You would never hear a bass saxophone for
>instance, playing with a large orchestra and never
>soloing.Funny you should bring that up: the first saxophone to be scored in
the orchestra was the bass (bass in C, if I remember right).Grant
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green gdgreen@contrabass.com
http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------From: "Tom Izzo" <jeanvaljean@ntsource.com>
Subject: Re: Hoffnung
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 17:10:51 -0500
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com> of the Hoffnung Festival fame. Anyone own any LPs of these festivals??
> Cheers!Yes, I have the "Astronautical Festival-1961"
Angel Records S-35828Introductory Music PLayed in the Foyer
Festival Anthem
Leonora Overture #4
Duet from The Barber of Darmstadt
Ballad of County Down, Mostly in D Major
Excerpt from Belshazzar's Feast
Horrortorio
Mobile for Seven Orchestras
Tom
---------------------------------------------------------
From: "Tom Izzo" <jeanvaljean@ntsource.com>
Subject: Re: Why did the sarrusophone become unpopular?
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 17:49:26 -0500
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com>
> Funny you should bring that up: the first saxophone to be scored in
> the orchestra was the bass (bass in C, if I remember right).Yes, The C Bass was the first sax ever built. Adolfe Sax's first idea. (Tho
it wasn't called a "Bass", of course).Tom
>
---------------------------------------------------------
From: "Tom Izzo" <jeanvaljean@ntsource.com>
Subject: Re: Why did the sarrusophone become unpopular?
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 17:59:53 -0500
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com> and the idea of marching with the contra sax is
> absolutely absurd.
>No, I don't agree. I think the idea is delightful. (for Sax players, of course).
Tom
(so us Brass players can laugh at the crazy guys for trying to march a contra!) :-)
---------------------------------------------------------
From: "Tom Izzo" <jeanvaljean@ntsource.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 18:13:47 -0500
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comFollow this link & you'll find prices & availibility on Pan Flutes. I was surprised to learn there were Baritone, Bass, Great Baritone, Great Bass & Contrabass Pan Flutes.
http://www.dajoeri.com/preise.html
Learn something new everyday.
Tom
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