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From: "Spencer Parks"
Subject: Re: [CB] Bass Sax
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 18:24:48 -0600
>The second oddity is that, while the range ascends only to written
>Eb4 (which is where the keywork stops on many older basses), it
>descends to written A1, a half step below the range of any production
>model bass sax. And it isn't just a passing note, but a whole note,
>at forte, and andante (quarter = 63). The note is approached
>scalewise (D, C, Bb, A), and departed the same way (with a breath
>indicated immediately after the whole note). So the question is: how
>easy is it to lip down from Bb to A on a bass sax?
I think it was when I was playing the bari sax and I must've asked my Band
Director about going lower then the keys will allow. I think he talked
about lipping down of course, but he also mentioned angling the horn so that
you can palce your knee in front of, or almost in, the bell. That's pretty
damn hard because you're going to need some air to come out of the bell
since you've got everything pressed down. I guess if you're lipping far
enough down, maybe you can get close. Probably tougher on a bass. I don't
think I have tried it on either. I'd rather get an A extension or lower.
Uh oh, don't get me fantasizing.
SJP
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Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 16:33:42 -0800
From: Grant Green
Subject: Re: [CB] Bass Sax
>I think it was when I was playing the bari sax and I must've asked
>my Band Director about going lower then the keys will allow. I
>think he talked about lipping down of course, but he also mentioned
>angling the horn so that you can palce your knee in front of, or
>almost in, the bell. That's pretty damn hard because you're going
>to need some air to come out of the bell since you've got everything
>pressed down. I guess if you're lipping far enough down, maybe you
>can get close. Probably tougher on a bass. I don't think I have
>tried it on either. I'd rather get an A extension or lower. Uh oh,
>don't get me fantasizing.
On alto and tenor, its fairly easy to cross your legs (left over
right), and position the bell so that your calf covers about half the
bell. Mutes the tone a bit, but does drop the pitch a half step.
With bari, I found it worked best if I put my left heel completely in
the bell. Haven't had to do that since buying my own bari. On bass,
it seems like the bell would be too large to block effectively with a
leg, and since there is a Bb both before and after the A, one
couldn't use something fixed in place on the bell.
The bell on the bass sarrusophone is much smaller, of course, about
the size of a tenor sax bell. The only problem is getting my leg
over my head while I'm playing...
Grant
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Grant Green
Sarrusophones, contrabass reeds, &
other brobdignagian acoustic exotica http://www.contrabass.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 16:35:28 -0800
From: Grant Green
Subject: Re: [CB] Sub-tubax
>I am just going through some old e-mail, and noticed the mention of
>a contrabassoon extended to Aflat. In fact I have a photo of it: It belongs
>to Werner Schulze in Vienna. It looks fantastic, with the bell nearly going down
>again to the floor, so it's triple folded. If there is an interest, I can put a scan
>of the photo some place, so evereybody can look at it.
>Terje Lerstad
Terje, if you email it to me, I'd like to post it on the contrabassoon page.
Do you have pictures of any of WS's other instruments? I believe he
has Bb and Eb contrabass sarrusophones , amongst other things.
Thanks,
Grant
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Grant Green
Sarrusophones, contrabass reeds, &
other brobdignagian acoustic exotica http://www.contrabass.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 17:28:08 -0800
From: tubadave
Subject: Re: [CB] [CB Digest]
"Who evaluates woods for their potential musical qualities? Are all the
world's good musical woods already known? I like the idea of tree farms,
but what would we grow here in Wisconsin? I think of persimmon, osage
orange, and native hickory as having potential, but I'm not a
woodworker. Who studies these things? Seems that Fox has experimented a
great deal with different woods for bassoons, a topic I find intriguing.
Tell me more.
Jim Quist
* These two trees are not native to Wisconsin, but grow well here,
albeit slowly."
Slowly is a good thing. the slower a wood grows (generally) the more
stable it should become. Osage is hard & a difficult to control wood in
the drying process but I know it is done. Never worked with it
personally. It might make incredible bassoons. Thing is maple really
isn't difficult to find, it is sustainable within our own forests,
fortunate thing that.
Often the Manufacturer Has scouts in the countries of origin speaking
for each harvest. There is allot of poaching going on just like with
wild animals, although many cannot see the severity in such poaching so
it is quickly dismissed by those not directly impacted by such things.
To learn more I suggest contacting the "Luthiers Mercantile" If I'm not
mistaken the owner has a hand in many reforestation projects, If they
haven't changed ownership since I heard of this.
http://luth.org/hot.htm
http://lmii.com/
David Flager
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From: PaulC135
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 23:30:43 EST
Subject: Re: [CB] [CB Digest]
In a message dated 3/7/02 11:55:33 PM, writes:
<< Here's an odd one. I just received a copy of "1re Piece de Concours"
for Bb bass sax and piano by Julien Porret (copyright 1963). Two
curious aspects to the sheet music. First is that the bass sax part
is written in Bb bass clef (sounding a whole step lower than
written). >>
Could this be a work written for saxhorn instead of saxophone?
Paul Cohen
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From: "Jay and Adrienne Easton"
Subject: Re: [CB] bass sax low a
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:44:22 -0800
> Here's an odd one. I just received a copy of "1re Piece de Concours"
> for Bb bass sax and piano by Julien Porret (copyright 1963).
Cool! Where can I find a copy?
> The second oddity is that, while the range ascends only to written
> Eb4 (which is where the keywork stops on many older basses), it
> descends to written A1, a half step below the range of any production
> model bass sax. So the question is: how
> easy is it to lip down from Bb to A on a bass sax?
>
> Grant
Lipping is possible, though tough, but the old fist-in-the-bell trick works
great, as long as there's someone around who's willing to "lend a hand"...
Jay Easton
www.jay@jayeaston.com
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From: "menneke"
Subject: Re: [CB] Premier Pièce de Concours
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 10:15:05 +0100
Dear Grant,
I am very interested in receiving a copy of this "Premier Pièce de Concours"
Kind regards,
Friedrich van der Wart
Habrakenhof 14
2011 MZ Haarlem
Holland
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From: LeliaLoban
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 13:51:14 EST
Subject: [CB] Bass Sax
Regarding the 1963 "1re Piece de Concours" for Bb bass sax and piano by
Julien Porret, Grant Green wrote,
>>...that the bass sax part is written in Bb bass clef (sounding a whole step lower than written).>>
Porrot's choice of bass clef suggests to me that he probably didn't know the
bass sax well.
>>The second oddity is that, while the range ascends only to written Eb4
(which is where the keywork stops on many older basses), it descends to
written A1.... And it isn't just a passing note, but a whole note, at forte,
and andante (quarter = 63). The note is approached scalewise (D, C, Bb, A),
and departed the same way (with a breath indicated immediately after the
whole note). So the question is: how easy is it to lip down from Bb to A on
a bass sax?>>
Unless he composed this piece for a specific musician who used a bass with
the (rare) low A key, he's asking an awful lot, IMHO. Yes, it's possible to
drop a low Bb down to A. I'm an amateur. I assume that a pro would do a
better job than I do. Still, if anybody performs that trick well enough to
do it in public, then I'm impressed.
It's easy to bend the pitch up or down a quarter tone on bass sax, and
feasible to lip up or down half a tone or even a whole tone in the middle
(easiest part) of the range. However, the low Bb is the most difficult note
to play cleanly and in tune on a bass sax. Lipping low Bb significantly up
or down causes me to "slide in" -- audibly feel around for the pitch --
instead of centering the tone. Worse, bending the tone that much on the low
Bb risks a gurgling noise or a hoot up an octave. Sustain that lowered pitch
with a clean tone and good intonation for a whole note, forte, in an andante
measure? Yikes!
In theory, you can also push the Bb down to A by blocking the bell with a
knee or a leg. Lots of luck. Has anybody ever seen a bass sax player
accomplish that feat of contortion? Maybe a bass sax player could hire a
bell-blocker, the way a pipe organist hires a stop-puller. Or maybe I could
persuade Ms. Shadow Cat to stuff her chubby rump down there, but she'd never
sit still to keep the pitch steady, much less jump out on cue....
Lelia Loban
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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:08:33 -0500
Subject: Re: [CB] Bass Sax
From: Michael C Grogg
In the last century when I was in music school, I remember a bassoonist
who had to play either a low A or Ab who added a piece of cardboard tube
(paper towel tube?) to the end of his bell to get the extra length of air
column to sound the note. Perhaps a larger piece of cardboard, or mylar
sheet or whatever could be attached to the bell to get the low A? Or
build a section not unlike a Harmon mute without the end but with a cork
to make a good seal all the way round that could be inserted and removed
by the afore mentioned cat or stop puller.
Michael Grogg
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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:24:53 -0800
From: Grant Green
Subject: Re: [CB] Bass Sax
>In the last century when I was in music school, I remember a bassoonist
>who had to play either a low A or Ab who added a piece of cardboard tube
>(paper towel tube?) to the end of his bell to get the extra length of air
>column to sound the note. Perhaps a larger piece of cardboard, or mylar
>sheet or whatever could be attached to the bell to get the low A? Or
>build a section not unlike a Harmon mute without the end but with a cork
>to make a good seal all the way round that could be inserted and removed
>by the afore mentioned cat or stop puller.
Low A is occasionally requested of the bassoon, and a cardboard
toilet paper roll will do the trick. However, the bass sax has an
enormous bell... The main problem, though, is that for this piece
one has to be able to play the low Bb before and after the low A, so
nothing that is attached to the bell is going to suffice. I'm
thinking maybe a Nerf ball attached to a mike stand...
Grant
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Grant Green
Sarrusophones, contrabass reeds, &
other brobdignagian acoustic exotica http://www.contrabass.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:43:31 -0800
From: Grant Green
Subject: Re: [CB] [CB Digest]
>Could this be a work written for saxhorn instead of saxophone?
>Paul Cohen
A careful examination of the music reveals that... you are absolutely right. It says "Saxhorn basse en si b et piano". There's a picture of it at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1513284842 (click to enlarge either picture).
Maybe I'll transpose it for contralto clarinet...
Grant
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Grant Green
Sarrusophones, contrabass reeds, &
other brobdignagian acoustic exotica http://www.contrabass.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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From: "Spencer Parks"
Subject: Re: [CB] Bass Sax
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 15:03:43 -0600
>>In the last century when I was in music school, I remember a bassoonist
>>who had to play either a low A or Ab who added a piece of cardboard tube
>>(paper towel tube?) to the end of his bell to get the extra length of air
>>column to sound the note. Perhaps a larger piece of cardboard, or mylar
>>sheet or whatever could be attached to the bell to get the low A? Or
>>build a section not unlike a Harmon mute without the end but with a cork
>>to make a good seal all the way round that could be inserted and removed
>>by the afore mentioned cat or stop puller.
>
>Low A is occasionally requested of the bassoon, and a cardboard
>toilet paper roll will do the trick. However, the bass sax has an
>enormous bell... The main problem, though, is that for this piece
>one has to be able to play the low Bb before and after the low A, so
>nothing that is attached to the bell is going to suffice. I'm
>thinking maybe a Nerf ball attached to a mike stand...
>
Now we're getting creative, but now we also know that it's for Saxhorn
anyway
SJP
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